From the media

The Protector of Citizens Zoran Pasalic was a guest on the "Day Live" show on N1 Television.

Let's move on to the topic of the day. Zoran Pasalic, the Protector of Citizens, will talk in the “Topic of the day” about what he established by visiting the location where Vietnamese workers stayed in Zrenjanin, which authorities violate the rights of citizens the most. Good afternoon and welcome. We had a good introduction to this conversation – we heard that a doctor is on a hunger strike and that he lists a number of things he is dissatisfied with, starting with mobbing, then deciding who will get which specialization, and then he also mentions covid and compensations. Lots of reasons, lots of dissatisfaction. Is that a reason to intervene as the Protector of Citizens?

- That is the reason why he should address us in the domain of what we can do, except for the first one, which is mobbing, for which the court is competent. As it is already known to the public, we do not have the right to control the courts or interfere in the work of the courts, he can address us for everything else. However, we cannot do that directly, but through the inspection that deals with this issue, but we would certainly monitor the work of the inspection and see what it found, and if, so to speak, the inspection findings were in line with what the gentleman said, then we would go with some recommendations. If they were not in line, then we would see if there is anything we can do to help.

Now that you say can you do something to help, of course we need to talk about the case of Vietnamese workers in Zrenjanin because it occupied the most attention in the previous days and the first question that arises is whether the authorities were late with the reaction? Have we waited too long for the first reaction and for checks?

- And what is the first reaction? I have to ask you, considering that this issue first went through the media, where it took an important place, as well as an important place among the reactions of various bodies, not only state bodies and institutions, but all others. I am thinking primarily of the associations that are called non-governmental organizations in our country, and certainly of the one who takes the most care of that, and that is the Protector of Citizens. But the Protector of Citizens works exclusively on the basis of proven facts and for that reason we have visited three times. Of those, I was present twice, today was my last visit, I don't mean in a series of events, but the last visit was one together with colleagues, where we tried to determine what has changed compared to the previous period and whether what is most important has changed, and that is that the living conditions of the workers hired by the company that deals with the execution of works, which is also a Chinese company, have changed.

For the first time on 29 October, the question of the living conditions of workers arose in the public, not Vietnamese also in connection with Linglong, but Chinese, and then we received some vague answers from the highest officials of this country who did not have time to check or wondered why we are so caring now as the television and the media, worrying about foreign workers. So, this topic is not something that has just appeared a few days ago. When did you first react? When did the labor inspection first react to such news?

- We responded immediately after receiving information about the situation of Vietnamese workers, but we also visited workers who come from China in terms of their accommodation and working conditions. What we found then was that the process of relocating all those workers to other locations had begun. The main reason was that in the first, so to speak, settlement, a large number of workers were accommodated, and the question was how good their living conditions were in terms of accommodation, personal hygiene, nutrition and everything else. Today, 4-5 days later, we were at five locations where they were relocated, with 89 workers remaining in the original accommodation. They have been there since the first day, that is, since June, when the first workers came from Vietnam, and they do not want to leave. That accommodation is about five minutes from the place where the works are being done. They go there by bike. Their answer to our question was that at the moment the number of 89 workers in these facilities absolutely suits them for the way of life they want to lead. It is certain that...

Do you believe that they answered your question freely and without fear?

- I am absolutely sure of that, because we talked to a large number of them without any presence of someone who could be conditionally called an official.

Yes, but could that official find out what they said, that they said that their conditions were bad and that they wanted to get out of there and punish them in some way for such statements, as we have heard?

- Punish who?

The Vietnamese workers.

- An official to punish Vietnamese workers? You see, everyone mostly connects this issue with the company "Linglong", which has practically nothing to do with all this, because the workers are hired by a different company that is also Chinese, which deals with all that.

Which was hired by "Linglong", right?

- Yes, but it's the same if you hired me to build you a house. You expect me to build you a house and move into it, and how I will carry out that activity, that...

Then we know those responsible. The company hired by "Linglong" to recruit workers is responsible, to bring them.

- That responsibility needs to be established.

And who do you think could be responsible?

- It can only be the company that hired them under the conditions under which it hired them, i.e., if it did not adhere to the conditions that it guaranteed them on the spot, i.e., in the country they came from; when they met in Vietnam, they were informed about where they are going, what they will do for money and what will be their salary, but they were certainly not informed about the conditions of accommodation. That is what they told us in the conversation, as far as those working conditions themselves are concerned. I repeat, they have been relocated to five locations until they join these workers who are from China and until they are accommodated in a similar way. As I said, we also visited those workers who are in container accommodation, where all the facilities that are necessary for their life are located. And what was very important for us to determine, since it was pointed out as the most important thing in the public, the question of human trafficking, was whether they have their passports with them and whether they are satisfied with accommodation and food. Not only did this contact with them give us certain answers, but it also gave rise to all the activities we undertook. As I said, we are not working on speculation but on evidentiary facts, so in these three visits, we went to both the police and the labor inspectorate, we were with them and at the new location, and we talked not only with Vietnamese workers, but also with Chinese workers, which is far easier. I have to tell you, these Vietnamese workers mostly come from rural areas and almost none of them speak any language. I read in some reports that few of them speak English. I can responsibly claim that almost none of them speak English.

And do you think they were not scared for their jobs?

- Let me just clarify.

Go ahead. We already know a lot of details.

- What is now perhaps lost in translation, either from Vietnamese to Chinese, from Chinese to Serbian, that is the only thing I can say that could be a problem.

But what is not lost in translation, I must interrupt you now, is that they lived in catastrophic conditions that are not worthy of a man, no matter where they come from, and that the state of Serbia must not allow for any worker, even if he came from some rural areas in Vietnam or anywhere else, to live in such conditions.

- I did not say that the rural environment is a condition for them to be accommodated like that, but I ask all those who say that they lived in catastrophic conditions to describe those conditions to me. I have been to them several times. In my opinion, the essence is that the conditions in which they lived were prefabricated conditions. Those are solid objects, but it refers to the rooms where personal hygiene is maintained…

Well, one water heater for 500 workers.

- Four water heaters, two broke down. That is 120 liters. Not for 500 but for 402 workers. Let's be precise when we talk about it. I know that doesn't significantly change the picture, but let's be precise.

It doesn't change it at all.

- So, the rooms in which they stayed, in which they slept. Regarding the first issue of trafficking in human beings, there are certain indicators according to which it is determined whether it is trafficking in human beings. They were asked these questions to see if there were certain elements, and then the competent prosecutor's office continues with that case, and we will see the results of their investigation. Then, satisfaction or dissatisfaction with accommodation. The main dissatisfaction was that there were too many of them in that area. Now that there are 89 of them, they think that these are the conditions that suit them.

And you saw what those rooms look like?

- Of course. I was in each of those rooms.

And how can we then think that someone is satisfied to live in such conditions?

- Well, I didn't say that they were satisfied, I said that those 89 that are there, want to stay there. And now it is normal, I said that a couple of days ago, that there are negotiations to move them from there, but they insist on that. When asked why, because there, they...

Let's just clarify something, because it's not clear to me either. As far as I know, no one remained from those unconditional barracks we are talking about?

- Not true. There are 89 people left in those barracks who do not want to move out.

All right, and?

- And the others were relocated to five locations. We visited all those five locations.

And are the conditions better now?

- These are now extremely good conditions, except for the one location where we have objections because the sanitary equipment has not been set up yet, that is, most of it has been installed, and one part is not. It is an apartment building where there are two or three of them in one room, somewhere there are fewer of them, but now the problem is how to move these 89 people out, who explain that now that they are there alone, everything suits them.

Okay. This means that practically they were just crowded there and that they didn't miss anything else, would you say so?

- No, I wouldn’t say that. I say this, that they must have lacked something, to what extent I cannot claim, because when asked what bothers them the most there, they did not complain about the conditions of accommodation, even the hygienic conditions, but complained about nutrition. That diet is...

Which is also a disastrous fact.

- The fact is, you see, that it should be viewed from all sides. You can't look at it from only one side. It's not about the amount of food, it's about, and the public needs to know this, that there are some traditional cuisines that they practice, so they were not satisfied with our food as we prepare it, nor with Chinese food.

But they were not satisfied with the quantity either. Not just with our food, the way we prepare it, but they got one egg for breakfast.

- Please don't say that, it's absolutely not true. We have determined exactly what quantities are given. The matter is in preparation and that is why now at the new location where they will be accommodated together with Chinese workers, so this is container accommodation, their main request is to bring with them their chef who would prepare food in the Vietnamese way, so to speak. So that was the point. People talk about how they had to prepare their own food. The fact is that they really prepared themselves, but the fact is also that a lot of that is a consequence of the fact that the only day off they have, and that is Sunday, they also spend preparing food, which is practically what they do the most.

And what about payments to those workers? Did you establish the truth there, were they paid or did they get one salary, as we heard from one of those workers?

- Those workers started coming in June. The last ones came a month ago. They are paid, the price of their work is between 700 and 800 dollars a month, for 26 working days. The biggest problem for them were certain, let's say, administrative obstacles regarding sending part of the earnings to Vietnam. I'll give you just one example.

Were they paid or not?

- They were paid, yes, yes.

So, for everything they did, all the months, they absolutely received their salaries?

- They were paid for all months. It's just a matter of sending their money to families in Vietnam. I will immediately make a distinction, their salary, as I said, was absolutely determined by checking the amount of the salary and talking to them, by comparing that data. Their salary is 700, as I said, $ 800 on average, if they have some overtime work, even more, if they have some absences, their daily allowance is reduced. This means not only if they are absent from work all day, but also if they are late. That is why it is very important for them to be as close as possible to the construction site, because if they have a bicycle, they do not move on foot, it takes five minutes, and another thing is if they are waiting for someone from another location to transport them, then they have to get up earlier. Now let me not go into details, but this is important. And the salary in Vietnam is on average 150 to 200 dollars, so it is important to them that they can send that money or most of it to their families.

Let's just round up this story now. What do we conclude from all that you said, that there were no problems there and that everything that was happening was normal?

- If there were no problems, they would not have moved out of that location. The first problem, as I said, was whether there was human trafficking. I will not prejudge the decision of the prosecution. In our opinion, according to the indicators of how human trafficking is determined and the description of that crime or its nature, to put it simply, it is Article 388 of the Criminal Code, you must take into account that I have been dealing with this issue since 2004, when it was called trafficking in human beings, so in my opinion, and I am speaking on behalf of the Protector of Citizens, that is, on behalf of myself, there were no elements of trafficking in human beings even under that article, that is, item 8 of that article 388, but let's not prejudge, we will wait for the decision of the prosecution and what they will determine.

So, we do not know, then?

- We do not know. Another variant is that they did not have their passports with them. The passports were, we found out when we arrived, in the building where the directorate of that business is located. They received reverses for those passports. They were explained why: because the first Vietnamese diplomatic mission is located in Romania and there is a danger of losing their passports. What would happen in that situation then? All passports were returned to them. So that information…

They were returned now, but they were not with them.

- They all have their passports with them.

But what is the most problematic for everyone are the conditions.

- Conditions, that's the third. It was determined that these conditions are not really good, primarily in terms of accommodation, and that is why they were...

Catastrophic. No heating.

- It is not true that they have no heating, it’s just that, you must take into account that people came in June, and now, when I entered those rooms, there are electric heaters there. We did not check the state of the installation, the

Ministry of Interior is in charge of that, but now we are dealing with heating, the number of beds. The conditions were bad. When you say catastrophic, then I must remind you that people often do not speak about what they have seen, the way our workers were accommodated abroad. No, it is very important. It is very important, because we have to make a gradation between good, bad, very bad and catastrophic. That's what I am asking you to do. But that problem...

We are not talking about our workers abroad now. We know that it happened a couple of years ago, we had a story about it in Slovakia.

- Well, I was there, that's why I'm talking about it.

You are talking about it, but let's focus now on this case of Vietnamese workers. Just a conclusion, what is the conclusion of that whole story? Was the intervention necessary, or the labor inspectorate…

- Not only the labor inspectorate, the Ministry of Interior, and now excuse me if I'm wrong, I'm tired, it's the part of the Ministry of Labor that deals with the protection of victims of human trafficking, they also dealt with this issue and where we are today when we think that we ended a part of the story, so it is normal that we will monitor how long they will stay in this new accommodation.

Were any laws violated in the whole story you are talking about? Labor law?

- We will see the results of the work of the labor inspection, i.e., what it will inform us. We sent them a letter today to answer certain questions. These are about work permits, the duration of it all according to domestic regulations and the thing which is very important to us, and that is what sort of labor-legal relations they have. They all have contracts for one year. So, the possibility...

That is according to our Labor Law?

- Well, they are in Serbia. They have asked us several times why the Protector of Citizens is interested in the issue. The Protector of Citizens deals with the protection of citizens of the Republic of Serbia and all persons who are on the territory of the Republic of Serbia, and that is clear to everyone.

Employees have the right to adequate earnings, safety and health at work, health care, protection of personal integrity, dignity of the person and other rights in case of illness and so on and so forth.

- There is something else. You have that which can allude to human trafficking, and that is communication with their kin in the country where they come from. But what is most important in that...

Does that communication exist?

- It does, of course. The most important thing for us was to determine first of all – whether they were told in Vietnam which country they were going to, what they would do in that country, how long they would stay, for what salary.

Some say they were told they were going to work for a German company, not a Chinese one?

- Maybe some of them said that. None of them told us that, because the basic question for us was what could be translated in some way, and that is whether they knew which country they were going to and which country they are in. This is one of the indicators of identifying victims of human trafficking. What is also important to us is the freedom of movement, whether they can get out of that space. Wires and many other things were mentioned there. They do leave the area, they usually go to buy groceries in the area, they don't go very far – and we wanted to know whether someone interfered or prevented them from doing that, whether they had inconveniences from our citizens because that happened in some cases we worked on before, and, what you said and what was most important to us, was this communication with the families they came from. To be clear, there were omissions. We were the first to identify these omissions and let me tell you, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the company that is the contractor for letting us into that area. If they had not let us into the space, the only way to come indirectly would be to hire a labor inspection to bring us into that space, because, as you know, the law does not allow the Protector of Citizens to control private companies. All the doors we wanted to open were available to us. All the people we wanted to see were available to us. All the people we needed to talk to were available to us.

Now, there is a Chinese person who is mentioned, and the manner in which he treated the journalist teams in the case...

- I met that Chinese man.

And? Why did he prevent the team?

- I know exactly.

And is it normal, what do you think, for him to stop the N1 team with his car or to stop the Deutsche Welle team from following the caravan with his violent driving?

- If he acted like that, that is...

Well, there are recordings.

- I believe you, you don't need to show me the footage at all. Then it falls into the domain of sanctioning such behavior on several grounds. Is that the recording? Well, yes, that's the gentleman.

Yes, that is the gentleman who you said was polite in communication with you. Your door was open for him.

- I can't say that he was polite in the sense that he was refined. But simply, communication was normal.

Normal, but not according to journalists. And what do you think now? Okay. This has nothing to do with this story now.

- This is a topic we can open, which is the protection of journalists when doing their job.

Let me ask you now, knowing how that manager treated the journalists. Do you believe that he has a civilized approach to those Vietnamese workers who were brought in through his company and that they have no fear at all of telling the truth in communication with you?

- I only saw this gentleman at the entrance and he never...

He did not attend the conversation?

- No, he didn’t.

But that doesn't matter.

- Again, we only work according to proven facts. Whether he is the rudest possible, whether he uses physical force, whether he treats them in some other way, I cannot claim until I see it or until it is proven to me. Now, to invent some stories, I am not inclined to do that, nor is it in the manner of the Protector of Citizens.

Of course. We will still deal with that story, of course, but since our time is running out...

- Sorry to interrupt, we will deal with it, because when we get what we asked for from these three institutions, the Ministry of Interior, the Ministry of Labor in terms of labor inspection and the Secretariat or whatever it is called, which deals with the protection of human trafficking, we will not stop... Since these are temporary locations where they are currently located, we want to see which will be permanent locations where some of them will spend six months, some a year. Some even longer, because the contracts can be extended.

What also attracted the attention of the public was the hunger strike of Milorad Ulemek Legija and you going to talk to Legija.

- Yes, I was in conversation not only with Legija or let us call him Mr. Ulemek, since I am not friends with him to use his nickname in addressing the gentleman. When we spoke to Mr. Ulemek, there were 13 prisoners there and except for two, they all wanted to talk to us, so that planned interview lasted until late at night.

Yes, they say six hours.

- Not with him, but with everyone. The interview with him was the longest, but the others also had time to give their remarks.

What was the basis for you to react and go to that conversation?

- The address of the lawyer, not only of Mr. Ulemek, but also the lawyer representing Mr. Zvezdan Jovanovic. They complained about the conditions and treatment. As for our special point of view, it is the treatment. When I say treatment, I mean treatment by those who need to monitor some things, which may sound pointless to some, considering what crimes they are responsible for.

Forty years in prison, right, for the murder of the Prime Minister and Ivan Stambolic and the attempted murder of Vuk Draskovic. We are talking about Ulemek, Legija.

- Every two years, it is reviewed how much progress they make in resocialization and whether it is done in the way prescribed. We should address the High Court here, which has the main say in it. You know that we cannot control the courts, but I am thinking of using our little right that exists in the previous law and in this law, and that is the Act of Cooperation, to see what everything that was written is based on, I have no desire to deal with official secrets, and I hope that it will not be qualified as such. What is important to us are the conditions in prison in terms of visits, physical contacts with loved ones. What is also important is how they spend time in prison. They have two hours for the gym, they have...

Six hours out of the cell a day.

- That's right. Two hours for walking and two hours...

The right to the visit of close relatives, defense counsel, visit of other persons who are not closely related. For years now, Ulemek is entitled to four phone calls a month. The Administration for the Enforcement of Penal Sanctions denied the allegations of Ulemek's defense counsel regarding that.

- What did it deny?

The allegation of Ulemek's defender that he does not have the conditions he should have, given his good behavior.

- We have to take everything into account. It bothers me terribly when someone in public says something that is not based on the law or proven facts. They are in the Special Department.

Everything is in full compliance with the law and the house rules.

- It's not about house rules. This is about what is regulated by a special law that refers to the rights of convicts who are responsible for organized crime. That's one thing. They are in those premises because they are members of certain criminal groups.

A prison with maximum protection.

- Not only with maximum protection, but with maximum restrictions.

Restrictions, alright.

- I will give you an example that will be clear to all viewers. You have the seventh pavilion where the perpetrators of the most serious crimes are located. These are cases of rape of children that upset the public, murders, multiple murders and so on. They have the right to more frequent telephone conversations than those in the Special Department because it is believed that those in the Special Department can communicate, thus being able to organize their own, so to speak, members of the same criminal organization in terms of further activities. And they complained about how people who are responsible for the most serious crimes have more conversations, have the opportunity to communicate better than them.

And what will you do next? What can you do as the Protector of Citizens?

- I'll tell you what I can do. First, it is important, according to me, and this will be in the recommendations, so you have an exclusive story, to better organize their time in terms of organizing some activities, in addition to these six hours, two hours of gym, two hours of walking, two hours of communication between them in those rooms in which they live together. To have some work organized for them, because they want that. So, something that would occupy their time. Then, to enable them better communication with the public in terms of the media, to determine who are those conditionally called educators, who communicate with them, who have the opportunity to determine possible changes in their behavior. These are experts. That's one part. The second part, that lawyers insist on, are changes in the law. I told the lawyers, changes to the law are okay, of course, but we must take into account whether we will be exclusive in the sense of introducing into the law something that is not in the international convention on the protection of the rights of convicted persons. We cannot go beyond that convention which we are signatories of, but we will certainly take all arguments into account.

Now I have to ask you if all legal remedies have been exhausted when it comes to Ulemek Legija?

- Legal remedies in what sense?

All legal means to get his rights, since the Protector of Citizens has been called to act?

- His lawyer told me that he did not receive an answer to some of the appeals, so he turned to us and it is normal that we, for whom this is a basic job, came to hear what he has to say, what the problem is.

Okay. In the end, I have to ask you, we will talk about it very briefly, the re-election of the Protector of Citizens is being prepared next year?

- Not the re-election, a competition is being prepared.

The competition is being prepared. Will you run?

- It is the same as asking me who I will vote for in the elections. It all depends on a number of factors.

Which, specifically?

- On my personal affinities, whether I should do this job or not.

Okay. And what do you say now at this moment?

- I'm not saying anything at the moment.

You’re not saying anything?

- No.

You haven't decided yet?

- No, but I have to tell you one thing. There is time.

We have very little time. I have to ask you something else about that.

- You have one basic thing, and that is that I have never used statements where I talk and argue a lot, without having a serious basis and serious evidence for that. Maybe it's a consequence of my deformity that I did the work I did, so I don't like reading empty treatises.

So, keep it short now.

- I did. That’s it.

What does that mean?

- It means I didn't answer the question, I will not answer you, but you will see next year, as long as we are alive and well.

Until next year, there is one more thing. Five mobbing lawsuits?

- Against me?

That's right. Your employees against you.

- I think there will be more, because...

So how does one enter the candidacy for a new mandate with that?

- Quite simply.

You are the Protector of Citizens.

- Quite simply, let these five lawsuits be proven in court that I resorted to mobbing. I will not use my right, and that is to sue those people for abuse. You have that in the law as well, called the Law on Prohibition of Harassment at Work. I will not exercise my right, but I am not sure that my colleagues who are also sued together with me will not exercise that right, so the court will make a decision and we will see who is who.

We surely will. Thank you so much for speaking for N1.

The Protector of Citizens Zoran Pasalic was a guest on the "News" show on Tanjug Television.

The situation with Vietnamese workers in the "Linglong" factory in Zrenjanin was the main topic in the media. Several non-governmental and humanitarian organizations have filed charges for labor exploitation and potential human trafficking. It states that about 500 workers live in overcrowded barracks and inhumane conditions. The inspection of the Ministry of Labor reacted to that and conducted an extraordinary supervision. The public in Serbia was disturbed by the recordings about the inhumane conditions in which the workers from Vietnam lived, engaged in the construction of the Chinese factory in Zrenjanin, and the allegations about their position were checked, together with the police, by the Protector of Citizens, who is my guest tonight. What has the control shown, what the situation really is and were the rights of those workers endangered, are just some of the questions for Zoran Pasalic. Mr. Pasalic, thank you for speaking for Tanjug Television. You also visited Vietnamese workers today. What did you find on the spot?

- We have visited Vietnamese workers three times so far, both in the previous accommodation that the public learned about the way it did, together with the details of their stay in the Republic of Serbia, and in the new locations where they were accommodated, while in the old location, another 89 workers remained who do not want to relocate. These are workers who came back in June and who claim that they are used to it, that now, in these conditions when there are not as many of them, and there were not more than 200 of them working in that part, that the situation suits them now. Negotiations with them are now in progress to make them leave that accommodation and move them to a new location. There are a total of five locations where they are located and we visited all five. And what is very important to us is that we talked to those who wanted to talk, and mostly everyone did, and they told us their impressions of both the previous accommodation and the new accommodation.

What was your impression when you first entered those barracks that were controversial and when you saw everything that we could also see?

- My impression is that it is not adequate accommodation, in the sense that there were too many people there. They did not complain about the conditions in which they live. The only thing they complained about was the diet, not because it is stated in many media that the diet is bad, but because of the way food is prepared. What the Chinese chefs prepared for them was absolutely not in accordance with their tradition and customs, so they asked for their chefs. They got them and they are now preparing food for them the way they are used to in their country.

As for the work permits, you said that they have in principle all the papers, but it remains to check those work permits. Do all workers who are in Zrenjanin have them?

- This is a very important question, thank you for that. The first thing we checked was, due to the allegations that there was human trafficking, whether there were elements from Article 388 of the Criminal Code that deal with human trafficking. What is important to us and what we talked to them about was whether in their country they were explained where they were going, what job they would do, what their salary would be, under what conditions they would work in terms of accommodation and food, and what would they do if they wanted to return to their country, under which conditions they would be able to do so. All their contracts are for 12 months, some have been here since June, some came here a month ago. The bottom line is that these conditions really aren’t, as I read in some statements, catastrophic. They were not good because there were a large number of workers, so they were relocated to other locations.

And what were the conditions they agreed to?

- Regarding those conditions, they are now at the five locations where they were relocated and they are satisfied with those conditions. Certainly, what is very important to say is that some cultural differences that exist between both Vietnamese and the Chinese must always be taken into account, and certainly between the Chinese, the Vietnamese and us as well. Our way of life is not their way of life and that should be respected.

Can this be said for what we could see, in the sense that they practically, several of them, slept almost on one bed and did not even have a bathroom and the like. Can this be attributed to those cultural…

- It is not true that they slept like that. No, several of them did not sleep in one bed, each had their own bed. The number of beds in one room is absolutely not what we are used to and that is what made the biggest problem because a large number of them slept in rooms where it is not a tradition for so many people to live in one place, according to some of our standards. But that was not the basis of their complaint. As for the sanitary facilities, i.e., the bathroom and…

Hot water.

- …hot water. The fact is that there were four 20-liter water heaters there, two of which broke down in the meantime, which was inadequate for so many workers. That is why they were relocated. But the reason for their relocation was not their accommodation or a complaint about it, but because in the passages between those, I would not call them barracks but masonry buildings, there were gas bottles and buckets, or barrels of oil, which was really a potential danger to their health and life. For that reason, the Ministry of Interior reacted and that was removed immediately, and later the relocation began. I will not say that those conditions were good, but I also cannot say that they were absolutely dissatisfied with those conditions. When asked if they are satisfied with what they receive for their work, i.e., salaries, they told me that they are satisfied and that there is only one problem of a technical nature, and that is that due to some administrative and technical moments, they cannot send that money to their families in Vietnam.

So, your impression is, in essence, that the public of Serbia was more horrified than it is realistically scary to them.

- I can absolutely claim that, just as I do not want to prejudge the decision of the Higher Prosecutor's Office from Zrenjanin that it is about human trafficking, but we worked, since we were on the spot three times, we worked on indicators that determine human trafficking. I really cannot claim that there was trafficking in human beings in the sense prescribed by the Criminal Code, Article 388.

Is it true that their colleague, who essentially initiated this media uprising, so to speak, was fired as a whistleblower?

- I really do not know that. I know that out of the total number of workers, which is 402, a certain number tried to leave the Republic of Serbia, but not to return to Vietnam, but to continue the route to Western Europe.

And, what happened to them?

- Some were returned, I think some of them left.

When we look at the reports we had in the media, on the one hand we have pictures of them eating on the floor, no conditions for bathing and the like, which horrified the public, and on the other hand we have a story in which they are in the factory, they say for the national media that they are well, that they are satisfied, that they receive a regular salary, and somehow this topic has divided the public in Serbia a lot. What do you see as the cause?

- What is always the cause is that one observes the absolute extremes, one or the other extreme, one does not look at the essence of what they are in. The problem is that the essence is not seen. The Protector of Citizens as an institution, since I have been at its head, has been working exclusively on proven facts. We went there three times, we talked, we went to check with the MoI, we went to check with other inspections, we saw where they lived, where they live now, what they eat, we talked to them, I repeat, and heard their story. What was very important in my work that I did before, if you can't understand everything or they don't translate it well enough for you, you have those concludent actions where people show their satisfaction and dissatisfaction. I really did not notice that any of them were neither resigned nor dissatisfied, especially since there was also the issue of their relationship with the inhabitants of Zrenjanin and its surroundings, whether they had any inconveniences from them, whether they were treated in a way that would not be appropriate, and they had no complaints about that. They have the opportunity to go to the city, they use it, they are completely free in their free time. The story of the wire in which they are, this story absolutely does not stand. And again, in order to give a clear picture in some way, the conditions are really not good, not only from our aspect, but also from their aspect, and that is why they were moved to other five locations.

And tell us in the end, what are the plans regarding these workers, but also whether this will be a lesson for some future problems that could arise with workers who may not have good conditions, and work in Serbia?

- They will be moved to where the Chinese workers are, in the so-called container accommodation. And we visited that, we also talked to Chinese workers and I repeat, that is not the basic problem. Their main problem is that they demand that some of their traditions, behavior, mentality be respected, which may not be in line with our habits, but they should really be given the right to that. And it was very important for us to check the possibility of their communication with their relatives in Vietnam, which was made possible for them. Because when asked how they use their free time, they told me and my colleagues that they either go to buy food or watch TV shows that interest them, which are related to Vietnamese television, but that they are most often in communication with their countrymen via Instagram, Facebook.

But should this serve us as a lesson?

- A lesson in what?

Well, to check maybe for some other workers or future ones who come, in what conditions they work.

- It is always checked.

But in this case, it was not.

- It was, otherwise they would have stayed there.

It was checked when they announced that they had a problem.

- It was checked when, for the first time, I repeat, there was a danger that something would happen around those rooms, in those passages, where some dangerous substances that could cause a problem were dumped.

Thank you for the interview, we hope there will be no more cases like this.

The Protector of Citizens, Zoran Pašalić, was a guest in the show "New Morning" on TV Pink.

Our guest, the Protector of Citizens, Zoran Pašalić. Thank you for coming to our "New Morning". Let's start – the Law on the Protector of Citizens should be adopted soon, as far as we understand. What changes will it bring?

- It brings many changes, primarily the expansion of the circle of powers of the Protector of Citizens regarding the protection of persons with disabilities, the persons who are victims of human trafficking and greater rights of children in being able to report what they consider to be a violation of their rights, and other changes concerning the increase of the competences of the Protector of Citizens.

When should the law be adopted and what are, let's say, some criticisms of that legal solution?

- There are a number of criticisms that have mainly related to some solutions concerning the mandate of the Protector of Citizens, and which I think are completely, as I would say, vague for a very simple reason: this law practically reduces the mandate of the Protector of Citizens, and even more importantly, it gives one solution which is also an instruction of the Venice Commission.

How long is the mandate now, how much is it being shortened...

- …Two times for five years. This is a one-time mandate. What was also a recommendation of the Venice Commission, which we did not adopt, and it gave much greater rights to the Protector of Citizens, is primarily the right for him to choose the circle of people with whom he will work during his term. This would practically allow the Protector of Citizens, to put it simply, to dismiss everyone in the Institution and to hire the people he wants.

To make a team that will work...

- To make a team completely. So, figuratively speaking, from the driver to his deputies. But that was abandoned.

Why?

- It was abandoned because we believe that in that way the position of the employees in the institution would be endangered and what I insisted on the whole time, which there are still certain dilemmas about, was to give better conditions to the employees, primarily material conditions, which employees certainly insist on the most.

As the Protector of Citizens, can you and to what extent legally do you have the possibility to help the victims of peer violence?

- There is a sequence of institutions dealing with the protection of victims of peer violence and the Protector of Citizens appears either when they schedule it or immediately, if he can prevent further violence by urgent actions, i.e., prevent that violence or in some way keep it under control in the worst possible case.

I am asking you because there were a lot of contradictory and different information about the students of the Elementary School "Đura Jakšić" who beat a thirteen-year-old girl because they did not like her haircut, they dislocated the child's jaw, the child is currently eating through a straw. When the mother addressed the parents of these bullies, the mothers said that their children had the right to do what they wanted, to beat whoever they wanted, and that the institutions would solve that.

- This is a great statement. Often institutions react with a certain reservation whether they will prevent violence or prevent some negative phenomenon which violates some other law, i.e., some other rules, and then in the midst of all those regulations, they practically become uncertain how they should implement or ultimately must implement them, eventually not implementing them at all, which leads to the escalation of such a phenomenon. It's not just about peer violence, you have it in your work, you have insults through the media. First of all, to whom will you assign the status of a journalist? Give me a definition.

Here, we now have cursing, insulting the mother, family, cousin of President Vučić, the last story, we all saw it.

- That's right. I am completely for the protection of journalists. Let's for once define who a journalist is, so that we may know who to protect and which are primarily rights, but certainly also the limitations in mutual communication in public appearances, primarily.

Again, protection from insults or from offensive tones or protection from violence as well. A journalist cannot enjoy protection if he implements that, right?

- A journalist should definitely enjoy protection, but be careful, there are always two settings. You have a certain right and you have a certain obligation. You have a certain protection but also a certain sanction if you exceed certain norms.

Absolutely. I think there was also a question in our media about whether those who are not vaccinated will have unpaid sick leave. You were in Russia, for example, and we heard that in Russia, if someone is unvaccinated, employers can suspend him and fire him. Is that correct?

- I don't know about that information because I didn't deal with it specifically, I was an observer in the elections in Russia at the invitation of my colleague Tatyana Nikolaeva Moskalkova, the Ombudsman of Russia. I don't know about that information, but I know one thing, from my personal experience, as well as from the experience of many friends and, unfortunately, from the experience of the families of those who tragically passed away, and that is that you can show resistance to something normative in terms of law, human rights, conventions, but the question here is the practical part of it all. How much does the whole society pay? I don't mean in financial terms. How much does it pay because someone, after all, simply does not want to be vaccinated?

Yes. Covid passports, many say that it is now a violation of human rights, I don't know what the people against vaccines still haven’t stated. We saw the gathering, people there talked about earth as a flat plate, and that the vaccines contain chips, or I don't know what. To what extent do those people endanger public health?

- I repeat again, we must start from the right...

… that everyone may say what they want.

- Not say everything, because there should be responsibility involved, especially if it is a public word. And now we will measure what a public word is, whether it is that which is reported in the newspaper, that what you say on television, or whether every post on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram is a public word. That is the constant dilemma, but it is certain that the law that protects human rights is also binding when it comes to the general interests or the interests of the whole society. We are the first country or among the first countries that had the possibility of vaccination, and yet here we are. You see the data every day. Now there is a key issue here, which my dear fellow Ombudsman of Montenegro mentioned, if I may quote him, I hope he would allow it, who said – people believe in Covid only when they see a coffin in their building or in front of their house. Everything else is in the domain of theorizing.

Many countries have introduced a rule that certain professions are to be vaccinated, doctors, soldiers, police officers, professors, because they have to perform their duty. This process of immunization was introduced. If they introduced that in our country today, many would start talking about human rights violations.

- It would immediately be a job for the Protector of Citizens, and I think the institution and I are always ready to answer, and to answer adequately, by quoting certain regulations. Talking about basic conventions, I saw an interpretation of a convention recently which was similar to mine, and that is the European Convention on Human Rights and Biology and Medicine or Biomedicine. You have that convention, but you also have the general one, so to speak, theConvention on Human Rights, which talks about the right to life. Let the one who invokes rights read both it and paragraph 2 of that convention which gives the right to protect society in the most drastic way if there are extreme situations involved. And where will you find a more extreme situation than this one.

Yes, a kind of suspension of human rights is possible in such situations and we see...

- Not all human rights, but restrictions on the duration of certain rights.

Okay, thanks a lot. There are many more topics for you. See you again soon.

The Protector of Citizens, Zoran Pašalić, was a guest in the show "Day Live" on N1 Television.

At the beginning of the summer, the public was shocked by the "Forgotten Children of Serbia" report by the organization "Disability Rights International" and the Initiative for the Rights of Persons with Mental Disabilities, which states that Serbia has failed to address serious human rights violations in institutions, which represent inhuman and degrading treatment. A team was formed, several ministries, which was supposed to investigate whether there are cases of severe neglect and lack of health care in those institutions, which are risky for the life and health of the child. Zoran Pašalić, the Protector of Citizens, was also in that team, and he is also our guest on "Day Live". Hello and thank you for your time for N1. As we have heard, and perhaps some have forgotten, that is what it looked like. After this report, the ministry immediately started visiting the homes. Did you visit those homes and what is your impression in relation to what is stated in this report?

- Our regular activity, both as the National Preventive Mechanism, which is a part of our institution that deals with precisely this issue, and in other segments of our institution, is precisely the tour and control of such institutions. After the report that you mentioned, I personally visited those homes where it was pointed out that the conditions were the worst – it was "Kolevka" in Subotica and it was Veternik. I was in Veternik several times, but I wanted to see if those reports were accurate, to what extent they were accurate, whether there were any improvements or worsening from the previous visit, so we spent more than one working day in each of those homes, an entire day, so to say. What I have to point out is that we always have a forensic expert in our team with us. We can't control all 500 children, but let's say for an interval of some 9-10 hours, a large number of children are controlled, especially those who are in such a health, physical and mental condition that an injury may have occurred, regardless, not to prejudge the cause of the injuries, and we found the situation that we found.

And what was the situation?

- I can say that the situation in those homes is extremely, extremely good. The first thing that indicates that is contact with those children. Children do not know how to lie, especially on that, I apologize for having to say so, on that mental and physical level. And the most important thing is that they are really very, very satisfied, if I may say so, with their stay there. I have to emphasize…

Maybe they don't know better.

- …I must emphasize that the visit was unannounced, so no one could get ready, eliminate some shortcomings, no one expected us to come, there was a circle of maybe three or four of us who knew about it. You say that maybe they don't know better, but you see, they have living conditions that are such that there really isn’t anything degrading about them, in terms of accommodation, care for them, nutrition, dealing with those children in every way, everyone is doing a good job, from speech therapists, physiotherapists, to special educators and the rest of the staff. It would be really hard for the children to have that in a different environment. My different opinion is about the relocation of these children to primary families – it certainly should be done, but only when certain conditions are met.

The report states, let’s remind ourselves, that in some homes, children are in metal beds that look like cages, convulsed, with thin limbs, that children were found wrapped in self-adhesive tape, hitting themselves and crying, etc. These are probably scenes that you could not come across even on an unannounced visit. How did you experience the conditions in which they live? Is there a chance that these conditions may have even been improved during that time, since, I do not know how long it took from the publication of the report to your visit?

- It has been several years since the photos were published in public, as far as I know, and they are several years old. I visited the home in Veternik a couple of months ago, and before that, a year ago, and there were significant improvements. And those photos, I don't think they illustrate the absolute state. Certainly, they upset the public the most. I have to say, they are children…

We don't know where those photos came from, since they were in the report…

- You will find those photos in each of these homes. Let me just indicate a difference. In "Kolevka", children stay up to the age of 18, so they are, let's say, small children. From the age of 18 onwards…

They are in "Kolevka" until they are 18?

- Until the age of 18 they are in "Kolevka", from the age of 18 onwards they are in Veternik. There are often people there who are over 40 years old, there are not many of them, but there are some, which means that they should be placed in homes for adults. This was one of our objections, that these people were not relocated, they were not relocated to homes for the adults, although there is a significant difference between the situation in homes for children and adults. I still haven’t visited Blace, we received certain complaints, so I think I will go there very soon, but I will not say when exactly because the visits are unannounced. We heard that the situation is as it is over there, but until I see it, I will not give any information. When you take pictures of children whose physiological status is such that they are immobile, then it really creates a picture that is not at all pleasant to look at. What we control is whether the children have injuries that can occur when they are tied up, when those children are, as they say, being manipulated, using, perhaps, some physical force, and whether these beds in which they spend almost 24 hours a day are equipped with everything they need so they can normally move and turn around – whether they have anti-decubitus mattresses, whether their positions are physiological. I am not the one who says this, I am not an expert in that, but the forensic doctor says it.

Another thing that, as stated in this report, left a strong impression is the position of women and children with disabilities in social care institutions, it is stated that they are exposed to birth control, i.e., being given birth control pills in order not to get pregnant, most likely through unwanted sexual intercourse with someone.

- I would not interpret that now – unwanted or wanted. What was one of our remarks, for example, when we performed the control in Sremčica some time ago, is that it is necessary for every home to have, if not a permanently employed gynecologist, then at least frequent visits of a gynecologist, and not to go towards the variant that we are now researching fully, whether, according to these findings, women are given contraceptives, or whether they can be found in their bodies, because if that is being done, it is certainly against their will.

You said yourself that in the home in Sremčica it was established that a gynecologist should exist, which means that…

- …We have established that there isn’t a gynecologist there, now I do not know if lately one was employed or if a gynecologist is obliged to come to constant visits since there isn’t one there already, in order to determine the condition of those children. Why is…

This means that in fact, now we do not know whether these people were subjected…

- Look, I feel really uncomfortable talking about this.

I'm just wondering if that means we still haven't established whether these women and girls were given some kind of birth control without their will, not knowing…

- We will establish that. I said we will establish that with toxicological findings. What is very important is that there has been information in the public that these people are practically forced to have sexual intercourse. That is the information that came to me, which I learned from the media. People need to know that there are certain atavistic reactions in that population related to food and sexual intercourse and that, even when they are willing, they need to be controlled, in order to avoid creating regular situations in which someone is abusing contraceptives to avoid the mentioned types of problems, I mean those who work in homes, who organize the stay or those who manage those homes, and instead, preventive actions are needed in such situations.

You think that it should be introduced in order to…

- No, not introduced. Constant gynecological examinations are needed, which would indicate possible pregnancies or other possible situations, and prevent them.

This means that someone is still doing it, without that person being aware of it?

- I cannot tell you without proof. I am saying that we are dealing with this at the moment, and that we will publish the results, now we only have information, and we do not work on the basis of information but on the basis of proven facts.

Let's move on to another institution that upset the public this summer, and that is Petnica. You asked for a control, that is, you asked to find out what was happening in Petnica. Did you get any response from the Ministry of Education? As you stated right here on N1, you have not established how the Ministry of Education can control Petnica, but did you learn anything from Petnica itself?

- We will publish the overall results which are very, very detailed. First, I stated in some media that Petnica was not organized in the seventies by the ministry, but that it was, in a way, an association. Just as you and I and the gentleman who is filming us, the three of us can form an association based on our three ID cards. Then, we were very interested in financing – who finances them and how, who is on the Steering Committee, where does the money go that comes not only from the state but also from private donors, all in relation to the work of Petnica. We are still waiting for some results and we will publish the report in its entirety. So, not only in the sense of this unpleasant event, and that is the abuse of the girls who were in Petnica. I think it's a matter for the prosecution and that the Protector of Citizens cannot say much about it, but everything about program development, program financing, referral of children, the reaction of the school that had to provide data, the questions that were asked to those children in order to enroll, all that is more the job for the Commissioner for Information of Public Importance and Personal Data Protection, but we also deal with it because we believe that some things were violated. And when we assess one such institution that is very important, we will go into detail and we will publish it. I don't know how much some people will like it, but the results will be accurate and established on evidence.

The point is not for somebody to like that, but to find out the truth. And talking about what was published, you published a report on what you learned about domestic violence that happened near Cacak.

- Yes, in Zablace.

What did you find out in the end? Yes, it was Zablace, the case of a murder of a woman, a child and the suicide of the person who did it.

- The genesis of that event is long. And, let's not give any recommendations in advance until we determine everything in detail. They have few more days to declare themselves, but the Center for Social Work in Cacak certainly could not make a conclusion only on the basis of that event, that is, previous events, because the genesis of that violence is very, very long. That is also true for the perpetrator’s attitude towards the family. Many of them knew that the relations in the family were such. We will see if the reactions were absent, to what extent they were absent and who is to blame for it ending like this. But if I may take some time, given that since 2003, I have been dealing with domestic violence as a phenomenon, protection of victims, while I was still working with misdemeanor proceedings, I honestly beg citizens not to turn their heads away when they see violence happening near them, just because it doesn’t concern them directly. I remember one murder in New Belgrade in 2005, which was really monstrous, where, studying that issue, I had the privilege of asking the tenants from that building if the violence had happened before, and they said yes. Well, why didn't you report it? Well, we thought it was a matter of family relations.

Yes, but on the other hand, here we come across the fact that some cases of violence are reported to centers for social work and reported to the police…

- And then they do not react.

Exactly. Which is probably why you sent such a request for information, what can be done on that issue in the future? The victims are not protected.

- Someone is certainly responsible, but I do not want to prejudge whose responsibility it is, but it is certainly someone. Because, I repeat, this phenomenon, this situation in Zablace, has a very long history.

That man even had a ban on approaching the woman from the police, which means that the police in some way did not…

- That's right, he did have a ban on approaching her and we instructed the police to inform us what they had done. Because, as it is known, the law is clear about what the ban on approaching means, how the police should act there. There are sanctions in both misdemeanor and criminal law. In what way they are imposed, that is a matter for the court, but we will also be informed about it, regardless of the fact that we cannot control the work of the courts. But we can get the information we are interested in to have a clearer picture.

One more thing about the police, but this time about the one in Zemun. It is about an incident at an exhibition in the Old Captaincy. You also asked the police to find out what happened. Did you get any response from the police?

- And to punish those who are responsible, considering that the possibility of violence was announced and that there was not an adequate number of officials who would prevent that. So far, the police have questioned five out of ten participants present, i.e., the perpetrators, but in our opinion, and this is also our recommendation, those responsible in the police must be sanctioned because they did not adequately respond to the warnings that arrived a few days before the event.

Do you have any information that something has been done, since…

- Unfortunately, just today, coming to your show, I calculated that the information would not arrive until the end of September. That is the deadline for declaring under the old law.

Okay. To explain what this is about – you asked for the responsibility of the police officers for omissions in their work to be established, and also to…

- And to punish those who made those omissions, that is, did not respond adequately, given that there was information that this could happen.

In fact, a police officer who failed to notify a superior officer of a threat report. So…

- Exactly.

This could have been avoided if someone in the police had reacted. You were also on an unannounced visit to the Police Administration in Smederevo. Why?

- It is our regular job, our regular activity of the National Preventive Mechanism and the Emergency Service, we did not do that upon a report. I'm talking about the police station, that is, about Velika Plana. We were also in the prison in Smederevo. Today I talked to a colleague, my deputy Natasa Tanjevic, who is in charge of that segment of the National Preventive Mechanism, and the results of the prison control are yet to come, and as for the results of the police station control, I can say, and I am not praising anyone in particular, but the situation in the police station is very good, if you do not count the accommodation capacities that are bad, that need to be renovated. But the attitude of the police towards the prisoners, the detainees, we did not find any omissions, which in certain police stations… As for the prison in Smederevo, it was a little more extensive control.

I have to ask you about a person who is employed by you, Dragana Grabovica, a civil servant who claims that she addressed everyone, as well as that she also addressed N1 Television. She claims that there was an alleged mobbing in your office, since she was transferred to another job, although you personally praised her. She was transferred to another job where she feels that she does not have a specific job. Have you tried to solve this situation and how do you see the fact that a woman who is employed by you has to seek intervention from some other institutions, even the media?

- I don't know why she is seeking intervention from some other institutions. Ever since I came to the institution, when I was appointed the Protector of Citizens, all employees have known very well that my doors are always open for employees, both during working hours and outside working hours. Certainly, some daily obligations may delay the possibility for me to talk with them at the very moment when someone wants to talk. I did not want to comment on that case, but here, you will have the exclusivity. I am always ready to praise someone's work and effort, but I am also ready to adequately call out someone for his inaction or bad behavior. I do not want to go into details here, they are the subject of disciplinary proceedings against some persons and institutions that have failed. You see, the institution of the Protector of Citizens, which deals with the protection of citizens from the silence of the administration, when a citizen comes and complains that an administrative body does not act on his case or request for several years, cannot have the same problem within the institution itself, where there are some cases that my colleagues and I found through control, that are from 2017, 2018. Looking for the person responsible for why no one had acted for several years, we came up with some names. I will not prejudge what is the subject of the proceedings. Secondly, the colleague is now in the press service, at a position where she monitors information related to the texts on the Protector of Citizens. This is not empty table mobbing. She is not doing the work that she did, but she is doing a job adequate to her education, which is very important.

Did she do something wrong?

- No, she didn't do anything wrong. Mind you, the institution of the Protector of Citizens is an institution that must be flexible, especially the department in which the colleague worked, which is the department for receiving parties. About 90 percent of the people who contact us want a conversation where they will personally explain the problem and the documentation they have. She used to do that, now she doesn't do that job, she does another job where she is free from that kind of contact, but where we don't think her dignity is endangered because she is doing a job which is adequate to her education for years and I don't see why anyone would be endangered there.

Okay, I hope you will solve that in any case.

- You see, there is another moment here, and that is – my position on the work of the institution of the Protector of Citizens is that we have to go towards the citizens, I said that when I took the oath, that I will open the institution for all citizens and that I, as well as our employees, will always be there, at the service of the citizens. Otherwise, why the institution?

In the end, let me just ask you something about the Draft Law on the Protector of Citizens, how will it affect your work and your powers?

- There are two things that I don't think will be in the new law, I'm almost certain of it. One refers to the salaries of employees, not to the salaries of the Protector of Citizens and his deputies, but to employees. I think that the salaries are inadequate for the employees of the Protector of Citizens, because those who perform serious controls of someone cannot be paid less than the ones they control. It doesn't exist anywhere. That is one of our suggestions. We were promised that the amendments to the Law on Civil Servants would regulate this in a better way. We will see, we will wait. The second is the possibility of controlling the court administration, because we believe that it is necessary and important. Also, we did not invent it, to say so colloquially, many institutions that deal with the protection of human rights, meaning ombudsmen, protectors of citizens, people's lawyers, can do that. The problem here is within the constitution, but we will not give up on it because over 50, 60 percent of the appeals to the Protector of Citizens are exactly the complaints about the work of courts in terms of the right to a fair trial, length of proceedings and non-enforcement of court decisions.

Thanks a lot for your time for N1.